DQ 9 - Amiri Baraka's "Dutchman"
Hi all,
DQ 9 is on "Dutchman" by Amiri Baraka, which can be found in the Course Library. Destiny will be leading discussion for the first half of the class, and then I'll share some information on the play.
Note: As it says in the syllabus, some of the language in the texts we're reading could be triggering or offensive. "Dutchman" contains racial epithets and other strong language and themes, so please keep this in mind. Part of discussion could be on how this language works and why Baraka/Jones chose to use it, and used it in the manner that he did, and how you reacted as a reader.
DQ 9 is on "Dutchman" by Amiri Baraka, which can be found in the Course Library. Destiny will be leading discussion for the first half of the class, and then I'll share some information on the play.
Note: As it says in the syllabus, some of the language in the texts we're reading could be triggering or offensive. "Dutchman" contains racial epithets and other strong language and themes, so please keep this in mind. Part of discussion could be on how this language works and why Baraka/Jones chose to use it, and used it in the manner that he did, and how you reacted as a reader.
Towards the end of scene one, Lula and Clay begin an interesting dialogue regarding politics. There are a number of allusions to the time period that this play takes place in. Of these include communism and an election which had taken place. What I found interesting was Clay's description of his parents who were from separate political parties. Despite their differences, they still loved each other and had a happy marriage. Is this indicative of a less intense political climate? I hardly see that as a possibility in todays polarized society.
ReplyDeleteThroughout the story Lula is connected to her eating of apples. She makes an ordeal of it when she is sitting next to Clay and again when they are pretending to be spending the night on the town together. She goes so far to explain "And with my apple‐eating hand I push open the door." What does this borderline obsession with apple eating have to do with her character? Is it symbolic of who Lula is as a person or is it much greater than that?
1) Why do you think Lula kills Clay at the end of the play? could it possibly be an example of the microcosms we talked about in class, depicting how white people oppress black people in society? I think the fact that everyone else on the train helps her throw his body out of the train supports this point as well.
ReplyDelete2) at the end of Clay's monologue he says Lula and her father should stop talking to all these "blues people" about "western rationalism", because eventually one day those people will murder her. What does he mean by this? he states that when these people murder Lula they will have a "rational reason for doing so" what would this rational reason be and why do they not have it now?
Karina Amalbert
ReplyDeleteAs is it obviously illustrated, Dutchman contains many sensitive language and actions which may offend many members of society. My first question is to what extent did this play/movie affect the social audiences in the 60s? Racism and Sexism is still a tremendous issue in modern day so I was wondering if the view on this play was different back then to how it would be viewed right now, if it could be viewed differently now.
Another question which struck me was the importance of the audience in the background of the entire altercation. It is known throughout the majority of the scene, there are other riders either intentionally ignoring the argument or minding their own business. What is the purpose of this? They seemed of importance when it came to Clay’s death but they were widely ignored beforehand. Would the intensity of the scene been lost if no one was riding with them? Or maybe the intimacy would’ve been lost too?
Julia Weisberg
ReplyDelete7-17-17
It is mentioned that the conductor of the train is black and I am wondering what the significance of him is at the end of the play. The encounter seemed a little bit odd to me and I am curious to know if he was supposed to symbolize something. I am also wondering if he does represent something what is the message he is portraying to the readers?
The second question I have is about the other passengers on the train. At the end they help get rid of Clay's dead body but like the conductor do they also symbolize something and if so, is it white society in general? Or are they simply just there to help get rid of the body and not have any deeper meaning?
Ethan Vaughan 7/17
ReplyDelete1. My first question has to do with why Clay continues to talk with Lula even though she acted very peculiar from the beginning of the conversation. In real life if someone accuses you of looking at them inappropriately and then admits that they got on the train to find you we would find that to be weird, if not, threatening behavior. Does it have to do with the stigma of a white woman at that point in history?
2. In this past year's election, especially on social media, African Americans in our country that were vocal about their support for various conservative candidates were accused of being Uncle Tom's. It is clear that the same problem that is raised by Amiri Baraka in the "Dutchman" is still present today in some capacity. Why isn't it talked about and combatted today as it was then?
July 17, 2017
ReplyDelete1. One of the themes that is interesting in this play is the supposed "Sexual Tension." I really can't tell if either of them are into each other because the conversation goes back and forth very awkwardly and neither of the characters are straightforward, but it seems as if the woman is leading him and, then shoots him down when he takes the bait. What is the author trying to say about this dynamic?
2. Obviously, this passage is fairly eccentric and different. Something seems to be off between to the characters, mainly Lula. Also, she knows facts about Clay that she could never have possibly known. So my question is, is this play meant to be representational of an actual event or situation?
Isaac Bendus
ReplyDelete7/17/17
While reading “the Dutchman” by Amiri Baraka. The story left me with two questions. First, why does Clay still talk to the woman after she makes anti-Semitic, and racist jokes? Was it just a different society at this time? And why does Clay keep talking to her after she acts completely crazy and totally out of line?
My second question is does Lula’s racism and craziness get worse as the story progresses? Toward the end of the story Lula and Clay seem completely crazy when they are arguing and I feel like this entire situation could have been avoided?
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ReplyDeleteKeagan Giblin
ReplyDeleteJuly 17, 2017
When Lula kills Clay the train car is pretty full with people. How come no one stops her from killing him, or at least contact the authorities that there has been a murder? Is it because during that time white people did not really care if black people were killed or because they had seen how crazy Lula was acting and did not want to put their own lives at risk?
Why does Clay put up with Lula’s behavior? She had acted strange since they met. Was he just oblivious to her behavior until the end when he began his monologue in Scene 2? And what causes him to begin his long speech?
Lauren Fiorito
ReplyDeleteJuly 17, 2017
I thought “Dutchman” by Amiri Baraka was actually very interesting. It kept me entertained and on edge, but I was wondering who in the story was the Dutchman, was it Clay or Lula? I also thought that her character was made to get Clay to explode on her. Why did she kill him in the end, and was that her plan all along?
Another question I have is about the ending with the two other men that were on the subway. What was their purpose and why was that the ending Baraka chose to use? Also, what is the purpose of the apple motif?
my first question came to me as soon as a read the first two lines of the play. Why does the author choose to immediately label the characters as white woman or ''NEGRO'' or ''YOUNG NEGRO''. I find the to be very unnecessary and racist so my question is, is it because she is a racist or is it to grab our attention.
ReplyDeletemy second question is this, why does clay continue to show interest in the woman who is seemingly racist and even anti Semitic, is it because he is alright with that, or is it because something about her is blinding him from realizing it for instance maybe her beauty ?
Sean Butler
ReplyDeleteWhen Lula flirts with Clay in the beginning, why does she randomly just shut him out of all of sudden? Is she trying to get on his nerves or is there another reason for the sudden change of mood she has.
Secondly, how come everyone helps Lula throw Clays body out of the train? Is Baraka trying to express how little respect black people got during this time?
Kylie Simmons
ReplyDelete7/17/17
After finishing Dutchman, I am surprised at the turn of events, and the apparent racism. My first question is regarding Lula, and if she had targeted Clay from the beginning, meaning why did she kill him?
My second question is how was this play originally enjoyed by audiences? Did the racism and sexism draw or prevent popularity? I was surprised by the use of language and actions in this play and was wondering if it effected primary audiences.
Kevin Clifford
ReplyDelete7/17/17
1. My first question from the reading is about Lula’s extremely condescending words throughout the novel. Does she think she is better than him simply because of race, or because she thinks she already knows exactly the type of person he is? Why would Clay not just leave earlier when the girl started to say racial slurs at him? Was it because of her sex appeal?
2. My second question is about Lula’s vast knowledge of Clay. She clearly knew more about him than she could of from just guessing. Did she already know him previously, and already had plans to kill him? Why else would she have a notebook and cross off something off. Has she done this to a lot of people in the past?
Daniella Alamo
ReplyDeleteThe Dutchman by Amiri Baraka is about a white woman named Lula and a black man named Clay and there interaction on a train cart. Throughout the story I wondered what is the reasoning for the name " The Dutchman"? What does the title of the play have to do with the stroryline?
In the end of the play the conductor makes an appearance. He is an old black man who tips his hat to Lula and continues on. What is the importance of this character and this moment? Why was the conductor only seen at the end?What was Amiri Baraka trying to say when she added this character and what is the significance of the conductor being black?
Brieanna Graves
ReplyDelete7-17-17
My first question relates to the ending of the play. During the scene where Lula introduces herself to Clay and offers him an apple. This is supposed to symbolize something relating to temptation. What are your thoughts on why the author included this scene of symbolism within the apple and why have the meaning as temptation?
My second question relates to a quote that left me confused. Lulu says to clay “the people accept you as a ghost of the future and love you, that you might not kill them when you can” and then proceeds to call him a murder. How did you interpret this part of the play?
My first question is, what or who do the other passengers of the train represent in "The Dutchman" , why do they just sit there while both Lula and Clay individually freak out and listen to Lula when she says to move Clay's body? Why are they not all just white but some of them are black what does this represent?
ReplyDeleteMy second question is, when Clay says "You must be Jewish. All you can think about is wire." Is this a reference to what happened to the Jews during the holocaust, and is this supposed to show that even Clay someone who has probably been discriminated against has some prejudices of his own?
Kylie Rodriguez
ReplyDeleteJuly 17, 2017
My first question is about Lula. I feel like not only does she say condescending words, I feel like she's super awkward, especially while watching the first half of the movie and I don't really get why. She was creepy-ish and stalkerish. I assume that was the intention, but why?
My second question is she seems towards the beginning very flirty as well, then she does a complete 180 degree turn and literally curse Clay out and becomes extremely derogatory. What was the purpose of this and why was this vital to be in the play in the first place? Why is she insane and decides to kill him?
When Clay talks about Charlie Parker and how he wouldn't be who he was if he would have walked down the street and killed every white man he saw he would have never played a note. He then says he would not become a poet if he killed her. Is he comparing himself to Charlie Parker? Is he a well known poet?
ReplyDeleteIs Lola trying to get Clay to kill her? Is she secretly racist or is she really just interested in Clay just showing it in he own way?
Carolyn Collins
ReplyDeleteJuly 17 2017
In Amiri Baraka’s “Dutchman”, as soon as Lula started talking to Clay, she began to mock him for dressing like a white middle class man. Clay doesn’t know who this stranger is, so would he engage in conversation with her if she made fun of him from the start? I’m especially confused as to why Clay continues talking to Lula when she starts making racist comments toward him. In the play it said that Clay was stunned at first when Lula made a racist remark but then he “quickly tries to appreciate the humor”. Clay seems like he’s obviously attracted to her, but is her good looks really enough to make her racist comments acceptable to him?
In “ The Dutchman, “ early into their conversation, Lula says to Clay “ You look like you been trying to grow a beard. That's exactly what you look like. You look like you live
ReplyDeletein New Jersey with your parents and are trying to grow a beard. That's what. You look like you've been reading Chinese poetry and drinking lukewarm sugarless tea. “ Do you think Lula meant this as a legitimate insult, or was she just messing around? Also, do you think Clay took that statement into account when judging Lula or did he just brush it off because she was a pretty woman?
In the play, Lula is the one that pursues Clay, yet seems to get angry with him in an instant over absolutely nothing. She pretends to not know who he is, she walks away and moves seats at one point. But when Clay continues to speak to her, she acts angry with him for a little more and suddenly changes mood and is happy, flirty, and suggestive. Do you think that’s just how Lula lures in men (like playing “hard to get” ), or that she might have a personality disorder and be bipolar?
ReplyDeleteLooking at this play with the offensive racial language in mind, it is quite weird that a beautiful white woman goes and sits with a black man on the subway. Looking back in history, people used to never sit with someone of the opposite race. However, Lula deliberately finds clay and sits with him. Why does she go out of her way to talk with him?
At the end of scene one, Lula says “you’re a murderer, Clay, and you know it”. If somebody that just met called me a murderer, I would be slightly angered and probably not want to talk to them anymore. In scene two, they are pleasantly talking about going with each other to the party. Why after all the awful language that she has used, does Clay still talk to her?
July 17th, 2017
ReplyDeleteWhen reading, “The Dutchman” by Amiri Baraka I had a question about how Clay randomly changed how he acted towards the end of the play. His attitude and reactions changed drastically and it kind of surprised me. At first he seemed a little shy, but then towards the end he acted like he didn’t care as much what he was saying to Lula. I want to know what the author’s point was when doing this?
My second question is about the old conductor at the end of the play, I don’t get why this little scene is mentioned. Is the author trying to give us a message about something? This seems random and like it doesn’t really relate to the rest of the play. I don’t think the author would mention it though if he didn’t have a specific reason to.
Isabeau Cordes
ReplyDelete07/17/17
1. What commentary is being made with Clay and Lula's interaction racially? The 60s were a time of great racial tension and a white woman and a black man being together was unusual. Is Lula killing Clay representative of a lynching?
2. Why does Lula act so erratic? She seemingly goes from nice and flirty to upset with no trigger. Why is this a parrot her personality and what does it mean? Also why does Clay put up with her behavior so calmly, and what does that say about him?
Alexandra Liggett
ReplyDelete7-17-17
1) I did some extra research about "The Dutchman" and found out that when the play was originally introduced into a New York theater with a primarily black audience, it was rejected because it was considered racist against white people. While reading "The Dutchman", I interpreted it more as Baraka giving a warning to black people about the dangers of trying to mesh in with white society/standards. Do you think this is an "anti-white" play?
2) When Lula and the rest of the passengers throw Clay's body out of the train, is Baraka trying to symbolize how black people were treated by the rest of society in this time period? Like they were easily disposable or even trash?
In scene one, we are introduced to the characters. Lula seems like a know it all and Clay seems to think Lula wants a sexual relationship with him. What I don't understand is why Lula makes Clay ask her to go to the party with him when she only responds that she does not know him.
ReplyDeleteMy second question is why does Lula keep trying to figure out who Clay is by just assumption? Why does she call Clay a murderer?
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ReplyDeleteDQ #9
ReplyDeleteAnthony Duarte
July 17, 2017
After reading “The Dutchman” I could see how this is considered to be very intense or offensive because there is very strong racial tension through the conversation between Lula and Clay. My question is why Clay continued the conversation with Lula even with her being extremely racist and unreasonable out of no where during their discussion?
I also had a question at the end of this play as to why Lula unexpectedly kills Clay and why everyone on the train with them just helps Lula throw his body out? What was the point in them also having a part in Lula and Clay’s altercation at the end, especially with the discussion between the two seeming to be private as though the audience couldn't hear them?
Tyler Crane
ReplyDelete7-17-17
The racist comments throughout the play do not go unnoticed. In this day and age especially, they grab the readers attention. Did Baraka include the racist ideals in the play to reflect the time period at which it was written or were they planted to grab the readers attention? was Baraka a racist?
There is a strong motif of apples in the play. They are mentioned almost 15 times. There has to be a reason why Baraka puts such heavy emphasis on the apple. This reminds me of the story of Adam and Eve. Does the apple also represent temptation in this play?
Evan Smyser
ReplyDeleteJuly 17, 2017
Towards the beginning of the play, Lula randomly seems to get offended when Clay asks if she is going to party with her. After being oddly flirtatious from the get-go, why does she get offended out of nowhere? Clay did not say anything that would offend me. Was there something I missed? Could Lula have a 'perfect' conversation fantasy planned out?
In Scene 2 Lula begins to dance and Clay tries to stop her from harassing the others on the train. Why does he care about Lula's self image if he just met the woman?
In the beginning why does Lula taunt and play with Clay? She seems to be very bipolar and "wishy washy," so why does Clay continue to go after her?
ReplyDeleteAt the end she kills him which caught me off guard. Why does she kill him at the end what is trying to be portrayed in this act? Does this have to deal with a racial issue?
what do you think she meant by I lie a lot it helps me control the world? why does Lula refer to her own kind as "these people"?what do you think was the significance of Lula boarding the train easting an apple and trying to get clay to have some? Murder was mentioned a lot during the play did you foresee Clay being killed? what do you think Clay's monologue purpose was? Do you think there was a significance behind the setting of the play? At the end of the play Lula sees another black man and approaches him, do you think it was her intentions to kill African American women?
ReplyDelete